Police Raid Stables?? Oh Dear

[Basil]

11 hours ago, the galah said:

Presumption of innocence fair enough, but  If you think having those charged with race fixing reinstated pending the completion of their court cases is not going to have negative effects on many participants view of harness racing,, negative press and negative punter confidence and reactions, well your an optimist, not a realist. 

I can just imagine it now . Preview of the nz cup on mainstream media referring to a third of the field being driven by those currently under a cloud for race fixing and supply of b class drugs. In fact every punter in the local pub will refer to any questionable drive  as it being a fixed race. Imagine that being repeated thousands of times around the country.

Not a good look. 

As to the drug offences, well did they not  disqualify Robb and Kennett for failing to supply samples for drug testing.   Somehow I think being charged with supplying b class drugs in the court is actually far more serious than that. 

Like it or not,HRNZ, are very much under the microscope here.  Not just the RIU. HRNZ actions here will dictate forever how many will view how honest HRNZ want the sport to be. If they are weak now, the perception of harness racing will forever be tarnished.

You talk about own goals.

By the way,has racing stopped or diminished in the last few weeks. The cold reality for those involved is No.

Sorry, but I can't quite work out whether or not you agree with yourself here. You say the presumption of innocence is 'fair enough', but then spend several paragraphs arguing against it in this case. So for the avoidance of all doubt, do you or do you not agree with the principle of innocent until proven guilty? If you do, why do you then oppose it in this case?

If I understand you correctly, you're of the view that HRNZ has to do something in order to prevent harness racing's reputation being 'forever tarnished'. Fair enough (although I'm doubtful that any more than a tiny percentage of the population either knows or cares about Operation Inca). But as I've pointed out, banning the alleged offenders from race courses does nothing to deter the continuation of the offenses with which they're charged (and may in fact encourage more) — so how exactly does the banning protect the reputation of harness racing? It seems more like a classic case of tilting at windmills.    

I also don't follow the relevance of your question about whether racing has 'stopped or diminished' in the last few weeks. Are you suggesting it would have suffered these consequences if the charged parties had not been banned from race courses? If so, based on what evidence? It seems purely speculative to me.

One thing I do agree with is that HRNZ are stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Whichever way they jump they'll be subject to considerable criticism. In other industries, such circumstances are often dealt with by 'suspension on full pay'. Obviously that's not possible here, but I then worry that they'll be on the hook for large compensation claims if any of the charged are subsequently found not guilty.

 

[hunterthepunter]

1 hour ago, Newmarket said:

A few points, 

No driver has ever returned a  positive for drugs? So by my info, plenty of drugs found, hardly a group of drug dealers are they? 

So what where they doing with the drugs? 

Think you might know

MARSKING AGENT

[Kane21]

4 hours ago, hunterthepunter said:

MARSKING AGENT

Brilliant, was it Agent 86 AKA as Don Adams?

[Rangatira]

8 minutes ago, Kane21 said:

Brilliant, was it Agent 86 AKA as Don Adams?

max would not look out of place at the riu

[hunterthepunter]

1 hour ago, Kane21 said:

Brilliant, was it Agent 86 AKA as Don Adams?

Or was it Elizabeth Penelope Olsen

[Harewood]

7 hours ago, Boxie said:

So you are inferring that the Police and RIU inconsistently apply the law?

Please go into more detail how you deduce this

 

[the galah]

9 hours ago, Basil said:

Sorry, but I can't quite work out whether or not you agree with yourself here. You say the presumption of innocence is 'fair enough', but then spend several paragraphs arguing against it in this case. So for the avoidance of all doubt, do you or do you not agree with the principle of innocent until proven guilty? If you do, why do you then oppose it in this case?

If I understand you correctly, you're of the view that HRNZ has to do something in order to prevent harness racing's reputation being 'forever tarnished'. Fair enough (although I'm doubtful that any more than a tiny percentage of the population either knows or cares about Operation Inca). But as I've pointed out, banning the alleged offenders from race courses does nothing to deter the continuation of the offenses with which they're charged (and may in fact encourage more) — so how exactly does the banning protect the reputation of harness racing? It seems more like a classic case of tilting at windmills.    

I also don't follow the relevance of your question about whether racing has 'stopped or diminished' in the last few weeks. Are you suggesting it would have suffered these consequences if the charged parties had not been banned from race courses? If so, based on what evidence? It seems purely speculative to me.

One thing I do agree with is that HRNZ are stuck between a rock and a hard place here. Whichever way they jump they'll be subject to considerable criticism. In other industries, such circumstances are often dealt with by 'suspension on full pay'. Obviously that's not possible here, but I then worry that they'll be on the hook for large compensation claims if any of the charged are subsequently found not guilty.

 

For you I will make it clearer what I am saying.

Innocent until proven guilty. -Yes

I don't argue the presumption of guilt.  What I state is there is a widely held perception that there may be evidence of guilt in these cases. 

Why? Because people believe that police lay criminal charges on the basis,they(the police )believe they have the evidence to support the laying of said charges.    

You state you believe only a tiny % of the population know anything about the current cases. I disagree. Futhermore, punters are  also aware.

How does banning  protect harness racings reputation?   It sends the message that you are not betting on future races ,in which the key participants  have charges pending in the courts for race fixing and drug use. .  As simple as that.  Surely you can see that. 

If the ban is continued will those involved be unfairly penalized.   Possibly, that will ultimately be decided by the evidence produced in the courts and by the riu.  If they are found completely innocent then they could they seek compensation.  Of course the opposite could apply if the charges are proven.It would be just as fair for punters to sue those involved, if they suffered loses as a result of a crime.

 

Its a simple big picture thing.  The publics perception of the integrity of Harness racing taking greater preference over those who have charges pending which undermine the integrity of harness racing.

 My comment there is my personal views.  For example I used to bet on nz dogs. When the live baiting issue with all there witnesses had no consequences, I gave up betting on the  nz dogs and doubt I ever will again.

Edited September 27, 2018 by the galah

[the galah]

By the way basil, i do realise there is a difference between perception and reality, however peoples perception in their minds is the reality, rightly or wrongly. 

[Basil]

19 hours ago, the galah said:

For you I will make it clearer what I am saying.

Innocent until proven guilty. -Yes

I don't argue the presumption of guilt.  What I state is there is a widely held perception that there may be evidence of guilt in these cases. 

Why? Because people believe that police lay criminal charges on the basis,they(the police )believe they have the evidence to support the laying of said charges.    

You state you believe only a tiny % of the population know anything about the current cases. I disagree. Futhermore, punters are  also aware.

How does banning  protect harness racings reputation?   It sends the message that you are not betting on future races ,in which the key participants  have charges pending in the courts for race fixing and drug use. .  As simple as that.  Surely you can see that. 

If the ban is continued will those involved be unfairly penalized.   Possibly, that will ultimately be decided by the evidence produced in the courts and by the riu.  If they are found completely innocent then they could they seek compensation.  Of course the opposite could apply if the charges are proven.It would be just as fair for punters to sue those involved, if they suffered loses as a result of a crime.

 

Its a simple big picture thing.  The publics perception of the integrity of Harness racing taking greater preference over those who have charges pending which undermine the integrity of harness racing.

 My comment there is my personal views.  For example I used to bet on nz dogs. When the live baiting issue with all there witnesses had no consequences, I gave up betting on the  nz dogs and doubt I ever will again.

I see. So it's a case of "I believe in innocent until proven guilty, but..."  Rather like those who claim "I believe in free speech, but..."  You're not the Massey vice-chancellor, are you??

I'm afraid that the so-called "big picture" is actually a tiny (almost embryonic) canvas. The "public's perception of the integrity of Harness racing" is very small beer indeed compared to the public's perception of the fairness and rule-of-law basis of the justice system. The latter is the "big picture"; the former is not.

If you want to protect the reputation and future of harness racing, come up with ways of actively identifying future and not-yet-caught transgressors. Shutting the stable door on horses that have already bolted achieves precisely nothing.

QED.

 

[the galah]

2 hours ago, Basil said:

I see. So it's a case of "I believe in innocent until proven guilty, but..."  Rather like those who claim "I believe in free speech, but..."  You're not the Massey vice-chancellor, are you??

I'm afraid that the so-called "big picture" is actually a tiny (almost embryonic) canvas. The "public's perception of the integrity of Harness racing" is very small beer indeed compared to the public's perception of the fairness and rule-of-law basis of the justice system. The latter is the "big picture"; the former is not.

If you want to protect the reputation and future of harness racing, come up with ways of actively identifying future and not-yet-caught transgressors. Shutting the stable door on horses that have already bolted achieves precisely nothing.

QED.

 

Comparing peoples perception of the polices standards for laying charges  to believing in free speech,but.    A rather long bow to draw there. 

You seem to argue that the public view court charges as far more significant than what actually happens in harness racing. Can't argue with that. So you agree with me I suppose,as that's what I have been saying. 

People not being aware  of what goes on in harness racing.There have been multiple front page stories in the Christchurch papers and coverage on mainstream news,so I think the general public is aware of the latest harness scandal.Not sure why you say they aren't interested. 

Coming up with ways of protecting  harness racings reputation. Well that's not my job but I would have to say where have you been? I have posted multiple times in the past on that subject. Still I understand you would not remember that as well as I do.

You say the horse has bolted. Well ive always argued the stable door was open for all to see. I have multiple times,yes,said  the police should be involved in gathering evidence on some of the matters I had concerns with. Police,customs etc. The thing is because so many in the industry thought that harness racing live in a tiny(almost embryonic) canvas ,your words,they never saw this coming. Even I am surprised at the scale of it all.

[Rangatira]

25 minutes ago, the galah said:

Even I am surprised at the scale of it all.

are you expecting a massive ramp up of charges on tuesday

[the galah]

1 hour ago, Rangatira said:

are you expecting a massive ramp up of charges on Tuesday

 

Only the police would know what further evidence their ongoing investigation is turning up.  

Not for me to second guess where their 18 moth investigation will go.

[Rangatira]

1 hour ago, the galah said:

Even I am surprised at the scale of it all.

i just had a second thought so wondering if by scale of it you mean you see the scale as below or above your expectations

[the galah]

 

1 hour ago, Rangatira said:

i just had a second thought so wondering if by scale of it you mean you see the scale as below or above your expectations

two lines this time, a few more words than normal.

The scale of personal drug use was above my expectations. I'll leave it at that.

[Turny]

Who cares - they are what they are - cheats on seats 

[Boxie]

On 27/09/2018 at 4:33 PM, Harewood said:

Please go into more detail how you deduce this

 

Were the stable hands in the back of the float referred to Police?

[hunterthepunter]

53 minutes ago, Boxie said:

Were the stable hands in the back of the float referred to Police?

as far as every one is a where no boxie

[Flagship uberalles]

19 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said:

as far as every one is a where no boxie

They conveniently disappeared

[Rangatira]

10 minutes ago, Flagship uberalles said:

They conveniently disappeared

presumed living ?

Edited September 28, 2018 by Rangatira

[Flagship uberalles]

2 minutes ago, Rangatira said:

presumed living

Yes, I assume they didn't go fishing in concrete Boots!

[hunterthepunter]

2 hours ago, Rangatira said:

presumed living ?

may be ghosts

[Integrity]

55 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said:

may be ghosts

They were both taken out into the Bush and given a spade each .

 

[hunterthepunter]

1 hour ago, Integrity said:

They were both taken out into the Bush and given a spade each .

 

no one knows there names

[Kane21]

4 hours ago, hunterthepunter said:

no one knows there names

Nobody knew their names they bought airline tickets under the name  Agent 86 and Agent 99 the airlines said your joking you are just marrrsking their names, they had name suppression from the float driver.

[Noodlum]

I'm surprised that no TAB bookies have caught up in this.