Police Raid Stables?? Oh Dear

[Rangatira]

2 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Then why not test their evidence under the rules of racing?  Instead they have abdicated and gone to the police to lay criminal charges.

would the RIU have had too little power over non licence holders

[Yankiwi]

1 hour ago, Integrity said:

To have someone charged under two jurisdictions ie: the Police   & the RIU  would fall under the category of " double jeopardy " which means that the second Jurisdiction ( Police ) would have no grounds to try to prosecute the defendant's .

 

An exclusion from a race course is not a penalty.

Inclusion at a race course is a privilege, not a right.

The exact same can be said for holding a license, be that greyhound (GRNZ), harness (HRNZ) or gallop (NZTR). If someone doesn't meet the applicable standards to hold the privilege of such license, simply they either don't get one or it is removed from them, that is not a penalty.

If I can't pass a theory or practical driving test, I can't hold a drivers license. Same difference....

[Yankiwi]

duplicate post - website lag...

Edited September 26, 2018 by Yankiwi

[Yankiwi]

duplicate post - website lag...

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Yankiwi

[Chief Stipe]

4 minutes ago, Yankiwi said:

An exclusion from a race course is not a penalty.

Inclusion at a race course is a privilege, not a right.

The exact same can be said for holding a license, be that greyhound (GRNZ), harness (HRNZ) or gallop (NZTR). If someone doesn't meet the applicable standards to hold the privilege of such license, simply they either don't get one or it is removed from them, that is not a penalty.

If I can't pass a theory or practical driving test, I can't hold a drivers license. Same difference....

Wrong.  What standards haven't been met?  You either pass the practical and theoretical test to get a license or not.  If you commit a misdemeanor that is proven then your license is revoked.  What's been proven so far?  The licensor hasn't even tested their case against the licensees.

[Taku Umanga]

41 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Instead they have abdicated and gone to the police to lay criminal charges.

..... and why not?  Race fixing and supplying drugs are criminal offences.

[Chief Stipe]

Just now, Taku Umanga said:

..... and why not?  Race fixing and supplying drugs are criminal offences.

Both covered adequately by the rules of racing.  Have criminal charges been laid against those kids caught in the back of the float?  Were criminal charges laid against Walker?

[Taku Umanga]

4 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Both covered adequately by the rules of racing.  Have criminal charges been laid against those kids caught in the back of the float?  Were criminal charges laid against Walker?

Personally I'd rather the Police and Courts deal with criminals than the RIU and JCA.

[Brando]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Then why not test their evidence under the rules of racing?  Instead they have abdicated and gone to the police to lay criminal charges.

 

23 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Both covered adequately by the rules of racing.  Have criminal charges been laid against those kids caught in the back of the float?  Were criminal charges laid against Walker?

The evidence wasn't tested under the Rules of Racing because: after Match Fixing was legislated as a Crime in Dec 2014, and the New Zealand Policy on Match Fixing and Related Corruption 2014 accepted, all National Sporting Organistions(NSOs) signed an agreement to Collaborate with Police to investigate when Match Fixing and Related Corruption is detected. Once it becomes a Police investigation, it will subsequently become a police prosecution if evidence of offending/illegal activity is discovered.

Prior to this Legislation, as Match Fixing wasn't a crime, it was to be dealt with by the individual NSOs.

So at the time of David Walker's offending, he breached the Rules of Racing but didn't commit a crime so was dealt with by the RIU and JCA. 

 

[Yankiwi]

1 hour ago, Chief Stipe said:

Wrong.  What standards haven't been met?  You either pass the practical and theoretical test to get a license or not.  If you commit a misdemeanor that is proven then your license is revoked.  What's been proven so far?  The licensor hasn't even tested their case against the licensees.

301  The Board is hereby charged with the duties of:- 

(b) controlling and supervising the conduct of all licensed and other persons coming within its jurisdiction; 

 

By excluding, the board (via the RIU) are controlling the conduct of some licensed persons within their jurisdiction.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Yankiwi

[hunterthepunter]

You cannot drive in a race under the influence of drugs but it seems some of these horses were racing on another planet

[Rangatira]

15 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said:

You cannot drive in a race under the influence of drugs but it seems some of these horses were racing on another planet

what horses

will a horse appear in court in relation to operation inca

Edited September 26, 2018 by Rangatira

[Basil]

7 hours ago, Taku Umanga said:

Those bleating about innocence until proven guilty need to consider the bigger picture here.

The biggest picture of all is the principle of innocent until proven guilty. It's the bedrock of a rule-of-law, as opposed to totalitarian, system. Without it, we just become...well, you get the picture.

In any event, race fixing and drug consumption are hardly hindered by not being able to attend race meetings, so the penalty seems to have little to do with the (alleged) offense. If anything, making it impossible to earn a legitimate income is likely to encourage grander attempts to obtain an illegitimate one. That truly would be an own goal.

[LongOwner]

3 hours ago, Taku Umanga said:

Personally I'd rather the Police and Courts deal with criminals than the RIU and JCA.

You and Dunedin University proctor would make the worst dinner quests at anyone’s table.

 

[Harewood]

4 hours ago, Taku Umanga said:

..... and why not?  Race fixing and supplying drugs are criminal offences.

Correct. They are charges under the Crimes Act of which only the Police have power to prosecute. Some people have very little knowledge how prosecutions and the Court system works

[Chief Stipe]

12 minutes ago, Harewood said:

Correct. They are charges under the Crimes Act of which only the Police have power to prosecute. Some people have very little knowledge how prosecutions and the Court system works

Um so why haven't all the drug positives been referred to the police?!

[the galah]

18 minutes ago, Basil said:

The biggest picture of all is the principle of innocent until proven guilty. It's the bedrock of a rule-of-law, as opposed to totalitarian, system. Without it, we just become...well, you get the picture.

In any event, race fixing and drug consumption are hardly hindered by not being able to attend race meetings, so the penalty seems to have little to do with the (alleged) offense. If anything, making it impossible to earn a legitimate income is likely to encourage grander attempts to obtain an illegitimate one. That truly would be an own goal.

Presumption of innocence fair enough, but  If you think having those charged with race fixing reinstated pending the completion of their court cases is not going to have negative effects on many participants view of harness racing,, negative press and negative punter confidence and reactions, well your an optimist, not a realist. 

I can just imagine it now . Preview of the nz cup on mainstream media referring to a third of the field being driven by those currently under a cloud for race fixing and supply of b class drugs. In fact every punter in the local pub will refer to any questionable drive  as it being a fixed race. Imagine that being repeated thousands of times around the country.

Not a good look. 

As to the drug offences, well did they not  disqualify Robb and Kennett for failing to supply samples for drug testing.   Somehow I think being charged with supplying b class drugs in the court is actually far more serious than that. 

Like it or not,HRNZ, are very much under the microscope here.  Not just the RIU. HRNZ actions here will dictate forever how many will view how honest HRNZ want the sport to be. If they are weak now, the perception of harness racing will forever be tarnished.

You talk about own goals.

By the way,has racing stopped or diminished in the last few weeks. The cold reality for those involved is No.

[Newmarket]

39 minutes ago, Chief Stipe said:

Um so why haven't all the drug positives been referred to the police?!

Drug positives? Everyone thinks the drugs were for personal use, maybe not the case. 

All will be revealed

[Brando]

45 minutes ago, Newmarket said:

sDrug positives? Everyone thinks the drugs were for personal use, maybe not the case. 

All will be revealed

A charge of Possession generally = for personal use.

The accused on drug charges, have been charged with Supply or the more serious; Possesion for Supply.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Brando

[Taku Umanga]

8 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Um so why haven't all the drug positives been referred to the police?!

I see your point - under the new race-fixing legislation perhaps they should be ..... but it appears almost all positives are dealt with using the "presenting" charge where "intent" is not one of the ingredients of the offence.  I think someone would need to be charged with "administering" to be covered by the criminal legislation too. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Taku Umanga

[Kane21]

17 hours ago, hunterthepunter said:

I fined this post interesting one stable hand refused drug test and returned a positive so how did one of the training partners test go??

The training partner was only tested for literacy and passed with flying colours. 

[Integrity]

9 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Um so why haven't all the drug positives been referred to the police?!

Would a positive drug test result  be considered fraud given that I may enhance pecuniary gain or depending what was used , inhibit a race performance in order to manipulate a race outcome ?

Edited September 26, 2018 by Integrity
Given that it may

[Newmarket]

8 hours ago, Brando said:

A charge of Possession generally = for personal use.

The accused on drug charges, have been charged with Supply or the more serious; Possesion for Supply.

A few points, 

No driver has ever returned a  positive for drugs? So by my info, plenty of drugs found, hardly a group of drug dealers are they? 

So what where they doing with the drugs? 

Think you might know

[Harewood]

11 hours ago, Chief Stipe said:

Um so why haven't all the drug positives been referred to the police?!

So which ones and which people are you referring to.  Remembering that there is a court order re names how do you know who is charged with what. Can the RIU charge people with drug charges in the open court. I dont think so! You are talking historical cases not this series of incidents where the Police are involved from the start. They will not charge some and then hand the rest to the RIU for a slap on the hand. As I said earlier a little knowledge ot Police procedures is dangerous. 

[Boxie]

32 minutes ago, Harewood said:

So which ones and which people are you referring to.  Remembering that there is a court order re names how do you know who is charged with what. Can the RIU charge people with drug charges in the open court. I dont think so! You are talking historical cases not this series of incidents where the Police are involved from the start. They will not charge some and then hand the rest to the RIU for a slap on the hand. As I said earlier a little knowledge ot Police procedures is dangerous. 

So you are inferring that the Police and RIU inconsistently apply the law?