hunterthepunter Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 13 minutes ago, the galah said: I don't think i rave on as you put it,just don't agree with it. You have pointed out the all stars do it. i think fair enough,but to single out them or mcgrath is unfair to both. I agree a number of the all star horses seem to have dropped a level in the last couple of months. There could be several reasons. maybe your right in what you say,bit hard to tell for sure. I think you will fined the rangatira has stopped supplying that stable with his puha 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 2 hours ago, the galah said: Thats your takeo,taking things to the extreme to underline and over stating what you believe was an injustice. The only injustice I believe happened is a result of the way the issue was handled. People's lives have been completely upended and some put under extreme financial distress. What for? A charge of "Improper Driving"? Other charges have failed to reach the threshold for court and are now back in the hands of the Industry Police - the RIU and Harness NZ. At what cost? Isn't it all an "injustice" to the industry? 2 hours ago, the galah said: I don't fail to comprehend you believe there was "extreme incompetence" displayed as you put it. I just believe you are totally wrong. When viewing the McGrath charge and penalty under the laws of racing surely most would agree that the RIU have been incompetent in the way they have handled this. But isn't it what we have come to expect from them? Inconsistency from week to week from region to region. 2 hours ago, the galah said: Crime of the century is emotive words. Bit of an exaggeration there i think. Really you think it is an exaggeration? Didn't you read the headlines - "Stables Raided by Police in Early Hours of Morning", "Charges of Race Fixing", "Harness employees charged with drug possession and intent to supply", "Police obtained warrants to secretly phone tap suspects," "Police and RIU secretly surveil harness identities", "Operation INCA" (I'd love to know who gave it that name!) and so on and so on. What do we have so far? Many charges dropped because they fail to reach the court threshold, some drug possession charges (only proves harness racing is not immune to societal ills) and an "improper driving charge" which was handled through the industry process NOT the courts! Even that charge barely got proven! The RIU have the power to test any licensed person for drugs at ANY time. They have to power to investigate any property where licensed activity occurs at ANY time. What did they do? Spun a yarn to their Police mates (many RIU are ex-Police) that there was some HUGE conspiracy going on who then investigated. I'd love to see the justification for the warrant - how broad was it? The drug charges were a by-product of the secret surveillance. Imagine if that process was extended to everyone in society? 2 hours ago, the galah said: Giving the impression the industry is corrupt to the core. Youv'e totally lost perspective with that comment. Who's ever thought that. What would have been exposed as corruption would have been industry insiders failing to take action and sweeping the allegations of dishonesty under the carpet. Imagine the press getting hold of such a story. I haven't lost perspective although some forum posters have. What do you think Joe Public thought when they read all the headlines? I didn't say the RIU is corrupt - just incompetent. Although given the level of incompetence and inconsistency you have to wonder sometimes. THE RIU DID FAIL TO TAKE ACTION!!! They FAILED to do their job and use the industry rules and processes. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 You wanted the RIU to investigate the allegations properly. Well they have used the avenues they felt necessary to properly investigate and they now are in possession of evidence gathered. But no your not happy with that. Your not happy they passed on the serious allegations to the police. Does that mean your unhappy the allegations were investigated thoroughly,thats how you come across to me. Surely you must know the police have a greater capacity to do so. Also do you seriously think the RIU had enough weight to have the police continue to put resources into the investigation. I think the police makes those decisions themselves,don't they. You complain about the headlines. History shows you get those very same headlines if the racing industry investigates itself. I can think of several examples. So does that argument hold much water? The RIU aren't incompetent. In my opinion they do a better job now than ever.In the past they overlooked so much. Sure there are recent cases where some individuals seem to have been treated a little bit harshly,but that has nothing to do with inca. Past history shows the riu haven't investigated some high profile cases with more substance because they were afraid of the fall out. Personally i think there has never been a better time for punters to invest their hard earned. Things are as honest as they have ever been. the handicapping system is creating good betting fields in the south island. Some of the premiership leaders are exceptional talents. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterthepunter Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 2 hours ago, the galah said: You wanted the RIU to investigate the allegations properly. Well they have used the avenues they felt necessary to properly investigate and they now are in possession of evidence gathered. But no your not happy with that. Your not happy they passed on the serious allegations to the police. Does that mean your unhappy the allegations were investigated thoroughly,thats how you come across to me. Surely you must know the police have a greater capacity to do so. Also do you seriously think the RIU had enough weight to have the police continue to put resources into the investigation. I think the police makes those decisions themselves,don't they. You complain about the headlines. History shows you get those very same headlines if the racing industry investigates itself. I can think of several examples. So does that argument hold much water? The RIU aren't incompetent. In my opinion they do a better job now than ever.In the past they overlooked so much. Sure there are recent cases where some individuals seem to have been treated a little bit harshly,but that has nothing to do with inca. Past history shows the riu haven't investigated some high profile cases with more substance because they were afraid of the fall out. Personally i think there has never been a better time for punters to invest their hard earned. Things are as honest as they have ever been. the handicapping system is creating good betting fields in the south island. Some of the premiership leaders are exceptional talents. where have your two p smoking horse transporter mates gone??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 19 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said: where have your two p smoking horse transporter mates gone??? One still in rehab and the other became a shoe salesman. I bought a pair of shoes off him the other day,i don't know what he laced them with,but i've been tripping ever since. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterthepunter Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, the galah said: One still in rehab and the other became a shoe salesman. I bought a pair of shoes off him the other day,i don't know what he laced them with,but i've been tripping ever since. I heard both where working in race day response team 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Stipe Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 On 10/03/2020 at 5:14 PM, the galah said: You wanted the RIU to investigate the allegations properly. Well they have used the avenues they felt necessary to properly investigate and they now are in possession of evidence gathered. But no your not happy with that. Your not happy they passed on the serious allegations to the police. According to the JCA Inquiry - (5) Unbeknown at that time to the Stewards or Inspectors of Harness Racing and the RIU, a police operation pursuant to an Interception Warrant issued by a High Court Judge, had, amongst other things, revealed telephone conversations... I find it hard to believe that not ONE individual in the RIU knew what the Police were doing given the closeness of some individuals, one in particular, to the Police. On 10/03/2020 at 5:14 PM, the galah said: But no your not happy with that. Your not happy they passed on the serious allegations to the police. The allegations appeared to have come from a disgruntled individual from within the industry not RIU investigations. People in glass HOUSES shouldn't throw stones. On 10/03/2020 at 5:14 PM, the galah said: Does that mean your unhappy the allegations were investigated thoroughly,thats how you come across to me. Surely you must know the police have a greater capacity to do so. Also do you seriously think the RIU had enough weight to have the police continue to put resources into the investigation. I think the police makes those decisions themselves,don't they. I'm unhappy that what was a relatively simple issue was blown up into something much bigger than it was. That was caused by incompetence causing great cost and harm to the industry and stakeholders. Yes I believe given the employment history of the some RIU individuals and the Police "brotherhood" that the RIU did influence the Police investigations. Afterall do the Police have a history of racing and wagering expertise? NO. So where would they go for their advice? On 10/03/2020 at 5:14 PM, the galah said: You complain about the headlines. History shows you get those very same headlines if the racing industry investigates itself. I can think of several examples. So does that argument hold much water? Where is the investigative journalism with the appropriate headlines showing that the RIU and the Police got it WRONG! On 10/03/2020 at 5:14 PM, the galah said: The RIU aren't incompetent. In my opinion they do a better job now than ever.In the past they overlooked so much. Sure there are recent cases where some individuals seem to have been treated a little bit harshly,but that has nothing to do with inca. Past history shows the riu haven't investigated some high profile cases with more substance because they were afraid of the fall out. They display incompetence on a regular basis particularly every Saturday. You admit in this statement that there is an inconsistency in the application of the laws - "overlooking", "harshly treated compared to some", "afraid of the fallout". Let's look a little bit more closely at the N McGrath case: The particular incident in question took place on 31 March 2018! It involved two horses - Sheriff and Star Commander - the latter driven by N McGrath. The inquiry that eventuated nearly TWO years after the incident focused on the information that McGrath drove improperly to give advantage to Sheriff. Now aside from the fact that Star Commander didn't have a shit show of beating Star Commander (unless he locked wheels with the said horse when in front with 10m to go!) Sheriff didn't actually take advantage of a the supposed benefit McGrath gave it by providing a gap to pass through. Sheriff found a better gap! Here is the Stipes report from that race written supposedly WITHOUT any other information - STAR COMMANDER - over-raced through the middle stages when to the outside of the leader. Stewards questioned driver N McGrath regarding the manner he drove near the 300 metres when his runner shifted outwards for a short distance. After considering his explanation, Stewards adjourned the matter to give it further consideration. Stewards have concluded their investigation into the driving tactics of N McGrath (Star Commander). After making further inquiries and considering the explanation of Mr McGrath Stewards took the matter no further other than to advise Mr McGrath that it was expected he drive in a more competitive and controlled manner at all times in future. Aside from the final inquiry result it is my opinion that to uphold the integrity of racing the RIU should have filed an Information at that point. Why didn't they? I would suggest incompetence. Given the final inquiry report there was sufficient evidence available from the race alone to proceed with an improper driving charge or at the very least a fine! If the Stipes and RIU want respect and to encourage the following of the rules they would be bringing this charges more often. THAT sends a clear message. The Police will be reluctant to pursue these cases in the future given the fact they got burned. I imagine their relationship with their RIU ex-colleagues is now strained. You may recall that when the charges were first presented to a Judge he made it clear that the evidence did not make the threshold for a clear conviction (although the evidence never got to the point where it was formally filed in the Court). A deal then ensued between the Crown Prosecutor and McGrath whereby the charges were dropped if McGrath agreed to have the case heard by the industry professional conduct process i.e. the JCA. TWO charges ensued - one which was a Serious Racing Offence (which has some very extreme penalties) and the other Improper Driving. Another deal ensued whereby McGrath pleaded guilty to the Improper Driving charge. Given that the evidence the Police obtained was declared admissible in the JCA proceedings it would appear that once again the threshold for a Serious Charge was not met. So in a nutshell if the RIU WAS doing it's job the Improper Driving charge should have been laid on the 1st of April 2018. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 My last comment on this matter. I've read the published decision and some inferences you have taken out of it, i do not think are accurate. You seem to believe that the telephone recordings were not an important part of providing sufficient evidence to prove a charge of improper driving. I can't see where the published decision says that. If the conversations were of no significance in proving the case then why did mcgrath spend so much money trying to exclude them from the hearing? Reading the stipes report you have quoted above the inference i take out of it is they looked into team driving. All this negativity you possess towards the RIU seems in my opinion so over the top. You want to turn back the clock a few years when this type of driving was deliberately overlooked by those policing the rules and they just picked on the small fry participants. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterthepunter Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 16 minutes ago, the galah said: My last comment on this matter. I've read the published decision and some inferences you have taken out of it, i do not think are accurate. You seem to believe that the telephone recordings were not an important part of providing sufficient evidence to prove a charge of improper driving. I can't see where the published decision says that. If the conversations were of no significance in proving the case then why did mcgrath spend so much money trying to exclude them from the hearing? Reading the stipes report you have quoted above the inference i take out of it is they looked into team driving. All this negativity you possess towards the RIU seems in my opinion so over the top. You want to turn back the clock a few years when this type of driving was deliberately overlooked by those policing the rules and they just picked on the small fry participants. come on galah you no this Inca is BS or do you have something against the McGrath stable 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said: come on galah you no this Inca is BS or do you have something against the McGrath stable might have backed star commander 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterthepunter Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Rangatira said: might have backed star commander or massive metro to beat winter fell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the galah Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 50 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said: come on galah you no this Inca is BS or do you have something against the McGrath stable Nothing whatsoever against the mcgrath stable. Always thought he was a good bloke and a very hard worker. His horses are very consistent and you know if you back a mcgrath runner they will be well prepared if they are at the races. He uses my favorite driver who i say time and again gives punters great confidence that he is there to win. Just mcgrath team drove in that race. To me that was wrong. And like ive said the price he has paid is unfair,but it was his actions that put him in that position. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 This so called Operation Inca is just dragging on and on! It has cost many in the industry a lot both financially and to their reputations. If it was an open and shut case, then why have they not been tried by now and if they were guilty of these charges then why on earth are they still allowed to be applying their trade a couple of years down the track??? Yes there have been a few drugs charges but seriously did it require headlines about properties being raided as if it was the crime of the century!! Personally think that it is totally over the top and it does not reflect very well on the Racing Integrity Unit when they are allowing the NZ Police and legal system to allow this to affect the people that are actually giving them a living!!!! The defendants are somehow shelling out mega bucks to lawyers to defend charges that should not have been made or should’ve been handled by the RIU but apparently that appears to be beyond them!!! Nothing personal at all with any that work for the RIU but there have been many decisions made in recent years that have just been just plain detrimental to an industry that is bleeding badly at the moment! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 7 hours ago, Brodie said: This so called Operation Inca is just dragging on and on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJ Flash Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 2 hours ago, Happy Sunrise said: Most pertinent words "Further police charges". New evidence perhaps? Greg 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 56 minutes ago, JJ Flash said: Most pertinent words "Further police charges". New evidence perhaps? Greg fresh charges were laid against three of those already charged at the end of last year garrick usually pretty much on the ball so looks like these are additional again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 They should put up or shut up! This is full blown BS! The 2 that initially it was about are the leading drivers in NZ and United States and they are both still driving! If there was anything concrete then let us see the concrete evidence rather than just wanking on about further charges being laid when no one is currently stood down or has been fined for anything! Why should the charged have mounting legal expenses going to overpaid barristers when most of them are on the bones of their arses??? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 36 minutes ago, Brodie said: They should put up or shut up! This is full blown BS! The 2 that initially it was about are the leading drivers in NZ and United States and they are both still driving! If there was anything concrete then let us see the concrete evidence rather than just wanking on about further charges being laid when no one is currently stood down or has been fined for anything! Why should the charged have mounting legal expenses going to overpaid barristers when most of them are on the bones of their arses??? patience brodster there is a process to be followed 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterthepunter Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Rangatira said: patience brodster there is a process to be followed Tim Williams driving the brodsters horse tonight rangatira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said: Tim Williams driving the brodsters horse tonight rangatira i used to like the brodster like a brother but since he sold his soul ............. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterthepunter Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 5 minutes ago, Rangatira said: i used to like the brodster like a brother but since he sold his soul ............. what have you band him from the spitfire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangatira Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, hunterthepunter said: what have you band him from the spitfire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taku Umanga Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 Acting on a report provided by Racing Investigators who completed a stable inspection at the training premises of N McGrath, Stewards ordered that CLOUD NINE and STEEL THE SHOW in Race 8 be scratched acting under Rule 213(1)(c). An investigation was opened into this matter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Taku Umanga said: Acting on a report provided by Racing Investigators who completed a stable inspection at the training premises of N McGrath, Stewards ordered that CLOUD NINE and STEEL THE SHOW in Race 8 be scratched acting under Rule 213(1)(c). An investigation was opened into this matter. What now?! They can do this to his stable but can't do it to those trainers who transform horses like those mentioned in the Star articles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Sunrise Posted March 13, 2020 Share Posted March 13, 2020 213 C So stipes saying the horses may have been administered a prohibited substance by it's trainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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